Negav - Lower Tier

>"the sheer size of Negav"

I hate to break it to you, but comparatively speaking, Negav is pretty damn small. It's smaller than Quebec City and barely bigger than the town I live at. It's only massive for the purpose of Felarya where the vast majority of settlements are tiny for the sake of discretion. Also, don't you think the Hydromancers' Guild would have way to counter fires that aren't extinguished by fire? They're the city's firefighters, it's only logical they have other tricks up their sleeves, otherwise they'd be shoddy at their job.

Well it is very big VERTICALLY.

Shady Knight wrote:

>"the sheer size of Negav"

I hate to break it to you, but comparatively speaking, Negav is pretty damn small.  It's smaller than Quebec City and barely bigger than the town I live at.  It's only massive for the purpose of Felarya where the vast majority of settlements are tiny for the sake of discretion.  Also, don't you think the Hydromancers' Guild would have way to counter fires that aren't extinguished by fire?  They're the city's firefighters, it's only logical they have other tricks up their sleeves, otherwise they'd be shoddy at their job.

"Smaller than Quebec City" is still rather large; you must live in a pretty big "town." They could easily be miles away from the river (though, lacking widths of the tiers, I can't say for sure that they could be that far away from the river in the Lower Tier). Also, the Hydromancers are, well, hydromancers; besides the odd telekinetecist they use for debris and such, they control water. Might they have tricks up their sleeve? Sure, but I doubt it would be more efficient than technologically advanced firefighting techniques and equipment; they're only more effective when they're in their area of specialization.

On the note of the cannons, and Karbo's picture of them: what kind of cannons are these? Who provides them, and how powerful and advanced are they? The picture makes them look approximately WWI vintage or equivalent.

My town covers an area of only around 90 square miles. That's not big. Also, what, they're not allowed to learn other kinds of magic, like lifting mounds of dirts to smother flames, or use more mundane forms of fire fighting? That's what doctors in Negav do. Of course their methods of firefighting isn't going to be as efficient or convenient as advanced technology, that's the whole point of advanced technology. If they had it, they'd use it. But they don't, so they rely on firefighter mages. I can't help but think you're trying to foist the Vishmitals somewhere it doesn't belong.

I'm a little tired of this issue coming up about Negav's size. So I'll be providing some statistical data in light of Oldman40k2003's absence. It wont be nearly as long or verbose, however.

Remember that its 90 miles in a square form, hence 90 square miles. If you drew a diagram it'd be 9 miles lengthwise, and 10 miles width (or vice versa, or somewhere in between). How long does it take you to walk 10 miles? You could easily do it, you could easily run that in a shorter time. Its like 3/4 of a marathon, I think. I mean its small for a city.

The sizes of cities (cit: http://www.newgeography.com/content/004280-largest-world-cities-2014 )



As you can see, New York City is roughly 12,000 Sq miles. If we make it 12,000 sq. mi. exactly, that means it is 133.3 times larger than Negav.

Now for population density:



Citation is the same as the one above, but since 2 or more sources are generally preferred, minus wikipedia you can read about it here. "Big Ass Document PDF" Its from psa.gov and its census data.

Here's something for you french people out there http://www.insee.fr/

90 square miles? Are you guys ignoring all the old information you gathered from the past. Negav is 110 square miles. How so well karbo saids

"karbo:ok I increased the superficy to 110 SQ miles. I have looked at some cities seen from above at that size and it's more or less what I have in mind for Negav."

Right in In this thread.

Honestly though he should make the square miles in the 200-300 range logically if he thinks a seven hundred thousand to a million people are going to fit just fine. In a city like negav. It's probably my biggest complaint by logic as it makes no sense even vertically, unless the underground is vast or the buildings ontop of other buildings is structurally sound, then i'm curious how it's 700'000 according to the wiki at all!?

Edit: I did a bit more reasearch excuse me. A modern city state today that negav can relate to that has built vertically and is it's own nation is city of Singapore with a whopping 278 square miles and a population of five million plus, that and it's pretty self sustaining.

So no it's not as ridiculous as i thought it was, but man i still don't get why it needs to be incredibly small.

Truth be told, it doesn't NEED to be so incredibly small. In fact, I think the numbers we used to have were not selected so much as guessed.

We should think of what kind of city Negav's supposed to be, and THEN decide population, area, and population density from that. If that ends up giving us 120.000 inhabitants in 300 square miles, that shouldn't be any more distasteful than we have now.

I'll eat my hat if he's not making a Halloween picture though, so maybe after the holiday?

Stabs wrote:

Truth be told, it doesn't NEED to be so incredibly small. In fact, I think the numbers we used to have were not selected so much as guessed.

We should think of what kind of city Negav's supposed to be, and THEN decide population, area, and population density from that. If that ends up giving us 120.000 inhabitants in 300 square miles, that shouldn't be any more distasteful than we have now.

I'll eat my hat if he's not making a Halloween picture though, so maybe after the holiday?

Stabs is  being fed to Chalyss, dressed up like a tootsie pop.

Anyway, I've always pictured Negav having way more than 120,000 people. The problem is how we realistically calculate that, I'm not even sure where to begin. I believe size is manageable though. From the pictures he draws, Negav looks like its 3 times bigger than what its listed, which would put it at about 300 Sq Mi instead.

There's population density per sq mile based on where in the city people live. The middle tier would be the most dense I think, unless we say that the poor district also has tall buildings as well, they're just not as luxurious as middle or upper tier.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

There's population density per sq mile based on where in the city people live. The middle tier would be the most dense I think, unless we say that the poor district also has tall buildings as well, they're just not as luxurious as middle or upper tier.

Well, I could see certain areas in the Lower Tier having higher population than the Middle Tier, if only because people are crammed in everywhere they can fit (including homeless people on the streets), whereas the Middle Tier has dwellings with decent area/person ratios. That said, the Lower Tier as a whole almost certainly has a lower density due to its large non-residential sectors.

Well the lower tier could also have crappy apartment complexes

Pardon the intrusion, but doesn't Negav have underground cities as well? I remember asking about that way back when I was composing one of my stories, and I think it was Karbo or someone who said that there exists a whole tier underneath the surface of Negav's walls. How far down it extends, I have no idea. I didn't quite dive that deep into it (no pun intended).

Stabs wrote:

We should think of what kind of city Negav's supposed to be, and THEN decide population, area, and population density from that. If that ends up giving us 120.000 inhabitants in 300 square miles, that shouldn't be any more distasteful than we have now.

I agree. If I were to say, i would be more towards shady's image of it being some what like that final fantasy city he imaged so that it doesn't have this bi-polarness and has a pretty consisted mix of magic and technology (or at least enough) to please both crowds in either spec so their minds can dither around on how to approach creatively of it's setting flavor. It's the only solid answer i've seen along with what amaroq wrote about it.

I thought about it at first when I rewrote the main article, the Lower Tier is more like your stereotypical RPG town, and Middle Tier and above being more like Lindblum from FF9. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought such a radical disparity in technological level made no sense. The misconception of the Lower Tier being super poor is that the name of the Tiers actually represent how high they are situated on the hill the city is built on. Does this mean that there is no disparity in technology or social standings? No, but it's nowhere as extreme as you think. The super poor district you're thinking of is the Underground, the slums below the city, and maybe Cremona Maze.

The Lower Tier might not be quite as rich as the Middle Tier, nor have quite as much magitech, but that'd be mostly due to most places requiring less. I'd imagine residential areas in the Lower Tier are largely similar to the Middle Tier, if only a little cheaper and with appropriate tech levels. If it were made that the Lower Tier is Medieval Town and the Middle Tier is Magitech Town, you'd bet your ass the Negavians who actually would be pissed off, and by that point, we all know what pissed off Negavians are prone to.

Commence Condensation.

Jaslow Arena and less-than-lethal weapons:

I don't think soft weapons would make things less exciting. If it was exciting enough for the ancient romans, it's exciting enough for you. In fact, seeing two guys scared to death trying to slice each other in half is what makes it interesting- it's not the same if you're after a display of technique. This is an arena, not necessarily a ring.

Jaslow Arena and less-than-lethal battles:

I've got a different idea. Why don't we use dolls... but instead of them being the avatars of the living, make them copies of the dead? Particularly beloved gladiators who die during the course of the games can have statues modeled after them, some of which would fight in special occassions. That'd make things a lot more metal, IMO, keep the excitement high- at the mere cost of causing undue, tremendous existential dread on the audience. They'd also allow specially hated individuals to be defeated over and over again, and specially beloved warriors to challenge generation after generation of fighters.

Jaslow Arena and magic users:

No comment on this one.

On firefighting:

No comment on this one.

On the Size of Negav:

I'm dropping this one, I talked to Karbo, and he's sure of both the population AND the area already.

On the cannons:

No comment on this one either.

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Amaroq's Revision:

Also, about the changes...

Amaroq-2 wrote:

Due to the incredible regenerative aspects of the felaryan flora and fauna, as well as the fact that Felaryas sky does not work like a common planets atmosphere, there are far less worries about pollution and long term consequences to the stable ecosystem than on other worlds such as Delurah. This causes the factories to expel most of their gases and waste relatively unfiltered, but at the same time people and environment alike don't suffer from pollution as much. Naturally, the smoke and fog is not exactly a welcomed byproduct, and negavian rulers made it a point to keep most, if not all industry in this western district, because due to negavs geometric location the wind first and foremost blows from east to west, preventing the smoke to darken the skies above the better situated tiers of the city.

If all we have pollution for is so that we can explain why it's not a problem, then nevermind the pollution...

Da Wiki Right Now wrote:

The Felaryan tourist guild has been recently founded by a group of merchants with the desire to make Negav -and Felarya as a whole- looks more attractive to visitors in order to increase business. They are known for putting an outrageously positive spin on things, with double-meaning words and carefully crafted innuendos. Their various guides to Felarya are distributed in other worlds, depicting an almost heavenly world of "Savage and untamed beauties", and beckoning visitors to come here. Needless to say the guild have been attacked numerous times by angry visitors discovering a rather different reality after they arrived in Felarya. However, the leader of the guild and author of the main guides, Malki Greenbeard, is a true genius when it comes to manipulating, stretching and twisting words to their limits, and take extreme caution to never outright lies. His collaborators and friends say affectionately in private that he could beat a genie at their own game.

Amaroq's Counter-Offer wrote:

When the Felaryan Tourism Guild (FTG) was first founded, people considered the entire idea crazy, rather than anything closely resembling a profitable business model. However, the Felaryan Tourism Guild has developed into a comparatively successful organisation, which has its mainstay in Negavs middle Tier, but also a smaller installation in the lower Tier, due to the access restrictions that come to those foreign to the city. The FTG offers sightseeing tours to several felaryan locations, that are deemed both spectacular to see and relatively safe to traverse. Depending on ones pocket money, one may book a forest tour through the outskirts of the Isolon Eyes range, on well prepared paths where carnivorous plants and animals are mere attractions rather than a real threat to ones life, but there are also more costly, and dangerous tours possible, such as a visit to ascarlin mountains, the topazial coast, discovery of the still inhabitated ruins of Ur-Sagol or even an (heavily armed) airship flight around the giant tree and back to Negav. Naturally, those tours are rather expensive and become more pricey the more guards are hired to protect those courageous enough to book a more dangerous tour, but the guild tries its best to ensure the safety and enjoyal of its customers. To ensure that there will be no trouble from legal issues or surviving customers or their relatives, the guild has any participant sign a contract that would speak the guild free of any possible guilt in case of an accident, and that customers would always obey the safety rules and commands of their respective survival guides. However, accidents and deadly attacks do tend to happen from time to time, especially when customers underestimate the dangerous nature of Felarya even in the "safer" regions, or if some unexpected things happen and some predators were not where the guides anticipated them to be.

I'm all about grim humour, so yeah. Can't we try to compromise and instead say the latter while sounding like the earlier? Doublespeech goes both ways, after all.

Well, let's all consider this for a moment: this thread is specifically about the Lower Tier and nothing else, so that lovely discussion about how the other Tiers are arranged has absolutely no bearing on the changes of THIS article. I say, ignore that discussion entirely and just stick to whatever concerns the Lower Tier and only the Lower Tier.

Got it, Shady. I'll shift some posts around.

Well let's do this. So again I think it's a solid rewrite of the lower tier, giving it a flavor and putting a lot more life in the description ^^
Overall I'm all ok to put that in the wiki ( although I'm going to trim some sections quite a bit, mostly on the phrasing )
The one point I really disagree with though is the Skyless city part. The fact the name Skyless city is supposed to refer to the underground is a thing I'm not really wanting to change. Moreover I think an "industrial" district like this should be more organized around the great foundry which is in the south east.
I'm more okay to compromise on the tourism guild though and have it organize actual tours. I would imagine them to take place in the Isolon eye zone, maybe in some spots made to look wild and savage but actually pretty secure ?

Well, one thing to remember is that since the main article has been rewritten, it mentions that there are a few such guilds, some legitimates and others not so much. For what it's worth, if we're going to highlight one such guild, it should start by having a name that allows it to stand out from the rest, like, I don't know, the Greenbeard Felarya Tourism Guild, named after its founder.

Organizing tours of the Chomikai Commons would work to give tourists this sense of wonder they heard so much about. However, when it comes to landing people past where it's safe where they can be eaten, I just don't see how that can be done. I mean, think about it realistically, even if there weren't giant man-eating monsters in Felarya, a jungle is still a plenty dangerous place for humans to just casual stroll through. That's why tours are done in controlled environments. Sending people past the Isolon Eye's maximum range alone would raise immense suspicion. And if somebody did die, then you can bet the guild would immediately get prosecuted for negligence and the place shut down, and there's no silver tongued man in the universe who can argue against what is clearly breach of duty.

Tourism guild aside, there's still the question of the Jaslow Arena. How do you think fights go there, Karbo? The way I personally see it, back when it was an underground fighting ring, it was purely gladiatorial fights were two or more men fought to the death, and spectators would bet on who would win. Since it's been made legal, fights are now a mixture of gladiatorial combat and professional wrestling. Like wrestling, half the goal of the fight is to entertain the crowd. The combatants are encouraged to be dramatic and flashy, hurl jabs and insults at each other like they're acting a scene in a play, and there's (usually) a low risk of death as the weapons are less lethal. Unlike wrestling, however, fights are not wholly scripted with a pre-determined winner and loser, how long fights go for and what move is used when. All of that is left at the fighters' discretion. Of course, it's a different story when one of the fighters is pitted against a beast.

Ill have to go over my notes and the article and the other city articles and can give a reasonable opinion or statement tomorrow. Im just posting this here to make sure everyone sees thaat I want to make a statement about this - so dont come to any conclusions yet pls.

Ok, from the feedback ive read I tried to rewrite some parts of the lower tier as follows:

Ill mark any changes in RED so you can see what I altered. Please give me your opinion afterwards. :3

I changed the city districts a little, hoping things look more coherent now. Thats the largest change.

I added some info on negavs logistics regarding the watchers gate to show why i arranged the districts like i did.

I did not change the tourism guild yet, as apparently there are still things to discuss, unless everyone is fine with whats already there?

I changed the Arena to be less lethal and turned the "eaten person only gets saved if the crowd wants it" into "only gets saved if he can be saved without risk to the beast handler" to make the fights less cruel. I also mentioned there being rules a little more clearly.
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Overview:

The lower tier of Negav can be considered Negavs' outer ring. It spans between the giant wall and the inner wall, which separates this tier from the middle tier region and in times of crisis may even somewhat serve as part of Negavs defense for the better situated people living deeper inside the city as the tight streets and alleyways form mazes that serve to confuse anyone unfamiliar with them, as well as natural chokepoints that make it impossible for large groups or creatures to traverse them safely.
As the name suggests, the lower tier consists mostly of people of a low to medium class standing, though in felaryan terms, that is still a relatively good life. The outer walls and heavy defenses, not to mention the presence of the Isolon eye, covering Negav and a large area around its walls, provide excellent protection against the dangers of the jungles, and grant what one would consider a relatively regimented life.
Life quality is simple, but sufficient. Most citizen live in houses built from clay and Takrit, a stone that is being mined deep underneath in the negavian quarries, and serves as negavs' main building material: Cheap and readily avaible, the dense sedimentary stone features a quality and properties mostly resembling that of sandstone. Even though brick buildings can frequently be seen, especially close to the inner wall, many more buildings of the poorest people are homes made of of less durable materials, such as wood, or even woven cloth. The poor district takes up the vast majority of official negavian citizens, but due to the fact most buildings are little more than being squeezed inbetween two others, streets are unorganized and buildings rarely have more than two floors, causing space to be a major problem, and homes to be relatively expensive, forcing many less fortunate people to live on the streets, or underground. Negavian middle tier merchants make a small fortune by buying houses and renting them to the poorer afterwards, leading to a hefty separation of luxury and income even in the outer ring, with parts of the city nearly falling apart with crime and neglection, while on the opposite side of the city hired guards patrol the street, checking on anyone that doesn't look like they belong to there.
Even though negav is pretty much overpopulated as it is, the lower tier is also frequently visited by virtually anyone who dares to set foot on this world via the dimentional portal just outside the city gates as well as travelling merchants and adventurers alike. Due to the fact, negavs lower tier stands open to anyone that is able to endure the isolon eyes warding powers, the lower tier is notorously overcrowded and busy during almost every time of day.



Quarters:

The lower tier can be divided into four general sections, though each section has their own districts and population and merely describe their functionality within the city.

The northern quarter is pretty much built around the victory gate and avenue of heroes, which leads to the middle- and higher tiers of negav. Being the largest district, it stretches all the way from ascarlin gate in the west to mumansi gate in the east and takes up close to a third of Negavs low-tier space all by itself while barely housing a 13th of its population. It is focused on economy and military, housing both the largest amount of military barracks, as well as guilds, taverns, inns and even a tourism center. It is relatively safe and peaceful, with most "crime" being tavern brawls and occasional theft, but nothing city guards can't get under control. Most buildings have some sort of function revolving around travel or trade, with their owners usually living either in the floor above or in the basement underneath.
During daytime, one may experience the thriving pulse of the city, merchants selling and buying everyday items alongside adventurer gear, survival packages and even some magical artifacts here and there. Smalltalk, laughter and appraising of wares is heard throughout the city landscape, an evernoisy place especially the likes of nekos have to get used to first.
During nighttime, the outer ring lies in darkness with only the major streets being illuminated by magitech lamp posts, and light that shines through the windows of the many taverns and Inns that are still open during the late hours. The streets lie in relative silence, even though still a constant noise of blabbering can still be heard around the main roads.

The western quarter, stretching from the ascarlin gate in the north to the red tail gate in the south, is notable for being the poorest area to live in. A single military barrack was once built to keep the district under control and its many alleyways under control, but nowadays it is mostly guarded off and isolated from the rest of the town as constant attacks and harassment by local gangs and organizations have led to a de-facto loss of control over this part of the town. Being quite close to the travelling-heavy nothern district, there are literally checkpoints one has to move through if one wants to enter or leave this part of Negav, something that is otherwise only seen when moving one whole Tier up or down. In a way, the western district is a tier in itself, where evil cannot be fought anymore, but merely contained. With questionable effect, as this district sports by far the most connections, both official and "selfmade", to the underground districts - ironically, also the most problematic ones such as the pit and skyless city.
The streets are very dangerous and constant fights between gangs and law enforcers are a daily threat that has demanded countless victims on both sides and even more uninvolved. Pretty much every district is under the control of a different cartell or gang, though officials naturally beg to differ and play down the loss of control as "minor crime that tends to happen like in any other city of this size and diversity". In reality, diversity is indeed much higher than usual, as many nonhuman groups are stuffed into this section of the lower tier. Black markets for all kinds of stuff can be found if you know the right person or building to go to and is considered the major source of income for the entire district. Crime rates are high compared to other districts and almost sophisticatedly organized: Unspoken pacts and invisible lines mark a diffuse system of times and places where no law enforcer is ever seen, and in return, the bands try not to cause too much uproar. A network of black money and twisted contracts has ensured a relative stalemate between the biggest clans, who marked their claims for now, though the entire area, with the poor life conditions and high amount of violence are still a melting pot that may explode anytime, should something go out of control.


The southern Quarter is located between red tail gate in the west and mercenary gate in the east. It houses the pumping heart of Negavs basic society, the common workers and townsfolk. In this district, one can find everything a thriving city needs to exist in a moderate state of luxury, including common barbers, shoemakers, clothiers and other manufacurers. Thanks to magitech, there is a lot of small scaled industry found here, even though most of it is located just to the east, around the great foundry. Other than that, there are simple worker barracks, them being their own districts near the edges of the quarter, and a surprisingly high amount of city guard stations, to protect the industry and workers from crime from outside, but also to ensure the workers do not try to make a living by supplying the western districts black markets.
Living quarters are affordable for those with a reasonable employment and crime rates are at least moderate, which is above average for low tier negav, even though some areas are known to be a little more dangerous than others, particularly around Cremona Maze. However, not all is bad in the southern quarter, and if one is to know the in's and out's of the district, one can live a prosperous life. Entertainment to the common citizen is given in the form of small theaters and libraries featuring novels and fantasy literature from Felarya and other worlds, but the biggest place to entertain the masses is without a doubt the Jaslow arena. Located in the district with the most citizen of its tier, the arena is a magnet of everyday life entertainment and a lot of merchandize can be bought in or around the arena. Having enough bread and games, the people around the arena are for the most part satisfied, and are looked at with jealousy and ill-will by those who are fated to live in the misery of its neighbour, the western district.

The industrial complex of Negav, located at and around mercenary lane, is relatively small compared to the towns overall size. Magitech and thriving offworld trade as well as the necessity of safe living space cause the city to have most goods coming from outside and the industry that is present here is cramped into tiny fabrication halls, and often even underground. Buildings here are larger than average with multiple floors to house all necessary gear and machines to ensure production of goods, mostly machinery and magitech furniture - even vehicles - are being produced here. Most important and well known is the great foundry, the one place where mass production of defense equipment and arms takes place.
Work here is hard and divided into unforgiving shifts, and even though accidents happen on a semi-regular basis, there are enough human ressources to keep a constant supply of fresh working power. Still, payment is good and those who can afford it, soon move to a better situated area, with a decent income and a relatively secure life.
Despite that, its at least an honest work and necessary to keep Negav safe and running. For that reason, the industrial complex is also the most well protected area in the lower Tier. In order to prevent sabotage of the towns defenses, an entire military complex was set up to protect the great foundry and the buildings nearby, to keep any unauthorized person away. The gouvernment ensures through a tight net of control and punishment that as little corruption and theft is able to happen here as possible, and the entire district can be set on lockdown in a heartbeat, in case an important is missing. The districts location is no coincedence, as it is mostly hidden by the mountain range that Negav was built on, but more importantly because it connects directly to the watchers gate - the only gate outside Negav that is founded on solid ground and thus able to carry even the heaviest goods and transports. More important than for exports however, the gate is important for imports, as the outback south of Negav is filled with farmlands and other industry that takes up a lot of space. Having a direct connection from producers to processing to selling is very important for the efficiency of Negavs productivity.

The eastern sector of Negav, set inbetween Mumansi gate in the north and the great foundry in the sough, is almost a pure living quarter where the better situated people live in. It looks very similar to the middle tier, even though it naturally isn't as well protected nor spacious, though people living here tend to have good chances of eventually moving into the next tier. This section mostly contains everyday shops such as bakeries and clothiers, with little to no other industry. People living here can be considered lower middle class, who can afford their own homes, even though some shacks can be seen here and there. Guards regularly patrol the streets, especially on the southern end that borders to the poorest districts. They are comparatively highly paid and usually live in this district as well, causing them to be motivated enough to keep their streets clean, though some gangs and cartells leaders also tend to have a decent living here. To most realistically thinking long term citizen, the eastern sector is what they want to call home eventually, and many of those that work in the western industrial complex sooner or later save up enough money to move to this place.


Points of Interest:

Asianas Bridge
Asianas Bridge, which connects the gate to the northern shore of Motamo River, is a huge and stable construction spanning over 60 meters in width and several hundred meters in length. Capable of withstanding the weight of even the largest amounts of people, animals and even some vehicles crossing it on a daily basis, it is most likely the most traversed structure made by human hands that's still in use. In fact, rumors say that the bridge has and will be able to endure even cannon fire from Negavs city walls, even though there are no visible signs of that actually ever having happened before. While the northern end leads to the dimensional gate, the Motamo docks, and the Inn of heroes, the southern end connects directly to the Victory Gate. Life here is everpresent, with some merchants even placing their wares on the bridge, trying to take advantage and a quick buck out of anyone too impatient or too suspicious to actually enter Negav itself.

Victory Gate
The victory gate is the main entrance to Negav. Towering high above Motamo river, its open gates are a symbol to Negav being the save haven, a bastion against the perilous nature of Felarya. It is also fortified like a bastion, with tremendous walls bearing massive cannons and ballistas to cope with anything that tries to enter negav without permission. Should the Isolon eye ever fail in its function, the victory gate would have enough firepower and resupply to defend the city for quite a few months, and even an army that miraculously managed to reach Negav through the jungle would struggle against its fortifications in vain. Each of the massive towers contains an entire batallion of soldiers that are trained to fight a vast amount of different foes and scenarios alike, capable of defending the gate with their lives, if necessary, and with Asianas Bridge creating a natural chokepoint against any foe that would rely on a numerical advantage.
The Gates usually stand open, to allow for quick entering and exiting the city, though a massive amount of soldiers and magic protections ensure everyones relative safety, even though smugglers dont have too much of a hard time to get their valuable goods into the city if they know the right people or hiding places.

Watchers Gate:
The Watchers Gate is the only other entrance to negavs lower Tier. It connects the southern quarter with the farmlands and jungles just southeast of Negav, and while being heavily armed and protected, it is more specialized in keeping the local wildlife at bay. The gate is much, much smaller than its big equivalent on the north side of Negav, and yet it is still secured with a well played array of trenches, fortifications and turrets, as well as huge calliber cannons in case the Isolon Eye should ever allow some giant predator to close in on the city. Like the victory gate, a whole batallion of troops is at arms and alerted at all times, ensuring the cities safety.
The Watchers Gate also plays a big part in Negavs logistics, as most goods produced around Negav need to pass this chokepoint. From here, the heavy goods go straight into the industrial complex, while other wares along with the processed goods from the industrial complex are brought into the higher Tier and the great market in Negavs middle tier, before the leftovers end up on the marketplaces of the northern places of its poorest Tier.

Negavian Central bank:
Naturally, the real bank of Negav is not located in the lower tier of Negav, however, there is a small installation of it right where the Victory Gate leads onto the Avenue of Adventurers. Security is extreme, with the building literally pulsating of defensive magic. All attempts of bank robbery have failed to this point, and even the most ruthless cartells and gangs refrain from attacking the bank by now, even though some voices wisper that the bank itself is run or ínfluenced by at least one such cartell.
Most notably known for allowing people to store their valuable goods inside transdimensional saves and archives, the bank also serves as a place to exchange any currency into skevols. Through a complicated process that's being kept a well hidden secret, bank accounters are capable of determining the exact value of any currency, no matter how akward or abstract it might be, and exchange it into a reasonable equivalent of skevols, allowing trade to happen with off-worlders or even travelling merchants in the first place, seeing how Skevols are mainly only used around Negav itself.

Adventurer Guild:
The Adventurer Guild is a famous and large building in the nothern section of negavs' outer ring. The rundown look with damaged walls, only two floors and a red peaked roof does fool the eye indeed, as the interior is surprisingly luxurious and speaks well of the glory and income of the guilds members. Several shops have settled here, that sell the most expensive, yet most valuable gear, often sold by retired or deceased adventurers. It is not unlikely to even have a tag tell of the former owner of a piece of gear, especially if that owner was a famous or high ranking guild member before, and many dubious merchants in the poor district come here to look for the newest "inspirations" for copying and labelling their own cheap gear, complete with a list of so-called famous previous owners.
Adventurers who join the guild are able to get tasks via a bulletin-board, as well as profit from advice, medical treatment, special protection and help by other guild members. Adventurers are categorized in ranks, with the higher ones often being worn as status symbols inside and outside the guild halls, gaining them the respect of fellow citizen and thugs alike, as well as granting friendly price reductions in some taverns, as they tend to attract less seasoned adventurers in hope for some valuable advice, story or simply recognition, as some adventurers are even considered small celebrities around town.

Jaslow Arena:
Once forbidden by the rulers of Negav, the Jaslow Arena's activity remained clandestine for years, under the command of the now defunct Amundis Jaslow, former head of one of the big criminal groups in Negav. The Arena started from a a hidden room with a pit under a tavern and thrived, growing bigger and bigger. It became popular to the point where the authorities thought closing it would cause too much of a backlash and decided to legalize its existence. Now directed by Amundis's daughter Faydea Jaslow, the arena is today one of the most popular venues in Negav. The Arena itself comprises a wide open-air circular fighting area, with walls all around. These "walls" are more series of arches, set in levels, stacked on top of each other, where the crowds sit to watch the spectacles. Aside from this, walkways connect to a smaller seating area with a glass floor that literally hangs over the arena - only the richest are able to get a seat in this observation deck. The arena also has an extensive underground area, with training rooms, a healing complex and a holding center for animals.
There are many scheduled fights, though the arena is open to booking in off hours. It's the scheduled fights that really bring in the crowds. These are usually either ranked fights between the best arena fighter teams, or "novelty" matches that usually involve monsters or beasts of some kind. Usually, for ethical and financial reasons, the fights between sentient opponents are ended upon defeating a foe, though accidents still might happen. Some duels, both lethal and not, however take place there as well, and when two people decide they want to publicly settle their score, they sometimes do it here - protected by the law, a set of rules and the eyes of several hundred witnesses. The spectacles the Jaslow Arena provides aren't nearly as violent and cruel as they used to be in the past, but the fight are still brutal, merciless and dangerous - particularly against the popular beast fights. During the novelty matches some inexperienced fighters occasionally get swallowed by the "beast of the day", and are only rescued by the beast handler if that doesnt mean bringing himself in danger of being eaten as well.
Nonetheless, the mere existance of the arena caused an uproar of those who fight for human rights within the city, who don't want Negav to be a society in which people are getting eaten alive for the entertainment of the audience, however, it seems the simple poor men still enjoy seeing blood in general, and it is a good opportunity for political leaders to display their power - another reason as to why the entrance to the arena is free. Magiocrats seem to believe the intense and sometimes gruesome spectacle provided is a good way to canalize the anger, agressivity and frustration of the Negavians people, and that the access to it should be encouraged, not hindered. More than the spectacle itself, Negavians are fond of all the characters involved, the personal drama, and challenges. Some famous names such as Vyand Nagaslayer, Stethros, Halig the bold etc.. make the heart of many negavians resonate with passion.

Hydromancer Guild:
As Negav grew in size, so did the danger of various hazards such as fires. Firefighters were, at first, a loosely assembled group, made up of volunteers. It was led by the now defunct Hortlin Fisk who, interestingly enough, was also a mob boss. Under his control, the firefighter guild progressively turned into a shady and thriving group, suspected of actually starting more fires than it extinguished them and blackmailing the population. The group was dissolved in 1970 A.U. by the Ps'isol magiocrats, who wanted to "modernize" it. They took advantage of the unpopularity of the organization to create their own, comprised of certified hydromancers coming directly from the Isolon University of Magic. At first, their Vishmital rivals challenged the notion that mages should be in charge of firefighting but, after a few years of its activity, they had to reluctantly recognize the hydromancers guild was extremely efficient at extinguishing fires in record time.
Hydromancer vigiles, as they are called, are mages specialized into manipulating and controlling water, using the nearby Motamo river to draw moisture from it that they turn into water above the fire. The process is quick and require no more than a small team of well trained professionals. They are often completed by a Telekinesis adept in order to sweep away debris or prevent a structure from collapsing. They form today a very effective and solid force, well respected by the citizens for their courage.

Felaryan Tourism Guild:
When the Felaryan Tourism Guild (FTG) was first founded, people considered the entire idea crazy, rather than anything closely resembling a profitable business model. However, the Felaryan Tourism Guild has developed into a comparatively successful organisation, which has its mainstay in Negavs middle Tier, but also a smaller installation in the lower Tier, due to the access restrictions that come to those foreign to the city. The FTG offers sightseeing tours to several felaryan locations, that are deemed both spectacular to see and relatively safe to traverse. Depending on ones pocket money, one may book a forest tour through the outskirts of the Isolon Eyes range, on well prepared paths where carnivorous plants and animals are mere attractions rather than a real threat to ones life, but there are also more costly, and dangerous tours possible, such as a visit to ascarlin mountains, the topazial coast, discovery of the still inhabitated ruins of Ur-Sagol or even an (heavily armed) airship flight around the giant tree and back to Negav. Naturally, those tours are rather expensive and become more pricey the more guards are hired to protect those courageous enough to book a more dangerous tour, but the guild tries its best to ensure the safety and enjoyal of its customers. To ensure that there will be no trouble from legal issues or surviving customers or their relatives, the guild has any participant sign a contract that would speak the guild free of any possible guilt in case of an accident, and that customers would always obey the safety rules and commands of their respective survival guides. However, accidents and deadly attacks do tend to happen from time to time, especially when customers underestimate the dangerous nature of Felarya even in the "safer" regions, or if some unexpected things happen and some predators were not where the guides anticipated them to be.

The Neko's Tail:
A small bar located right between the Low and Middle Tiers. Seemingly only memorable for the rather lewd sign and the frequent shows by neko dancers. However, the bar is known in the underworld as a meeting place of various neko gangs, who plot crimes here for profit or to strike back at their human oppressors. It's also rumored that the barkeep can get nekos in touch with the illegal tinies market... for a hefty price.

The Eat & Defeat:
A twin-business consisting of a tavern and an enchanting smithery of decent quality, that are both known to be run by a single person. Being located right at to the Victory Gate and next to the Negavian Central bank in a side alley, it can easily be considered the first opportunity for newly arrived adventurers to spend their money on food or improving their equipment.
However, the Eat & Defeat's owner Dalia is more memorable among tinies, as she is known to shelter an entire small village of tinies inside her basement, providing a safe haven as well as a comparatively decent food supply in exchange for occasional small favors, at least as long as they obey the rules.

Pileuda's Fried Glouteux
Rather than a single establishment, this name is known to be a whole chain of restaurants, commonly found in the lower Tier of Negav and even some upper levels of the underground. It's namegiver, Pileuda, is a mysterious person, however, in her name the restaurant chain made it a business to take advantage of the incredibly stupid nature of Glouteux. Employees dug spiked pit traps close to the outer edge of the Isolon eyes protective range, before they are tasked to lure in Glouteux by presenting themselves as easy meals, before running off to jump across the spike traps. This way, Glouteux are supposed to run straight into the pits, and thus into their doom, though accidents do tend to happen to employees in training who weren't fast or nimble enough. This mass hunting technique has led to a profitable industry as Glouteux is fried up and served speedily to hungry customers, even though eating at Pileuda's is known to not be the healthiest diet.

Citroise Smoothie Stands
Small and very common shops selling Citroise based-drinks. They are very popular across the city. Citroise smoothies are ever so refreshing and delicious!

I have a few problems with that version of the Lower Tier. It's a little bloated, though I think Karbo is going to trim some fat to make it easier to read, but more importantly, it makes little to no mentions of the original paragraph in the current article:

"The lower tier of Negav is the one closest to the walls. It thus has many buildings and constructions designed for defense; police stations, military barracks and hydromancers headquarters are, for the most part, situated there. The lower tier has the largest amount of inns and taverns of Negav, and is the part of the city where adventurers usually meet and congregate. Naturally, There are also many shops designed to capitalize on said adventurers. In some districts, it is believed that the number of adventurers often surpasses the number of actual Negav citizens. Thus, people living in the lower tier rely on adventurers and explorers for their livelihood and are often seen as more welcoming and friendly to foreigners than those living in higher tiers."

This is just how I do it, but I prefer to use the existing paragraphs in the wiki and simply expand upon them. In this case, it makes mention that the Lower Tier has the largest amount of inns and taverns in the entire city. Why? Because it's where most adventurers and outsiders meet and congregate. As such, a major part of the Lower Tier's economy is centered catering around adventurers, to the point that it's said that some part of the Tier, there are more outsiders just living temporarily than actual Negavian citizens. Your overview barely if at all mentions any of this. Instead it's mostly labeled as the slightly less poor part of town, and as a result, it feels like a completely different place. What could be done is have the northern district be where most of said inns, shops and taverns are found and elaborate on how this is the part of town where you're most likely going to find adventurers and outsiders.

Furthermore, the current overview makes mention that people living in the Lower Tier, i.e. the Negavians that have permanent residence there, are more friendly toward foreigners. We can take from this that they're probably also more tolerant toward other races since they're a little more common there. Again, you made no mention of that, which I think is for the worse.

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This is just how I do it, but I prefer to use the existing paragraphs in the wiki and simply expand upon them.

Personally, I prefer to rewrite something from the ground up, to make it more coherent with the new content. Its my style, and it may differ from your style to just take whats there and improve it. That wasnt my intention. As with the Inu species, I take the old design and redesign it, to keep the core but also add new things to it.
Whether thats better or worse everyone has to decide for themselves, but personally, I prefer this way to work with both as creator of the content AND user of the content as the added detail, as long as its not written in a too limiting way, adds more inspiration or ideas to readers.
Also I am aware that this is not what some people here prefer, and that Karbo is 100% certain to trim things down - but at least here is a choice of what to cut or what to condense in fewer sentences. If someone is going to rewrite and reduce the design anyways, i might as well give as detailed information as possible, to get my point across so people see what I aactuaally mean.

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In this case, it makes mention that the Lower Tier has the largest amount of inns and taverns in the entire city. Why? Because it's where most adventurers and outsiders meet and congregate. As such, a major part of the Lower Tier's economy is centered catering around adventurers, to the point that it's said that some part of the Tier, there are more outsiders just living temporarily than actual Negavian citizens. Your overview barely if at all mentions any of this.

That is not true. Rather than keeping the entire lower tier as just this, I made sure to specify that the northern part (and in faact, laargest paart, as I mentioned) focuses on tourism and merchandise and all that stuff, and that few people actually live there. and at the same time, theres still room for slums and lower middle class and all in all room for a normal life as well. Not to mention the magitech industry. All that is not mentioned at all in the short article. So here, my version gives more incentives to come up with ideas while STILL KEEPING the original idea very much alive. And yet, i think my more detailed version makes the place much more real and alive.

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Instead it's mostly labeled as the slightly less poor part of town, and as a result, it feels like a completely different place.

I disagree. I just stated how I think i kept the entire concept of lower tier intact and expanded on it to make it richer. However, it appears that my version of lower tier, thanks to its "upgrade" on details looks a little less "low tier" than before, as it contains elements thaat are currently expected to be seen in the middle tier.

The problem here is that I am planning to rewrite all of Negavs tiers one by one. I rewrote the underground which has become a super bad slum for the most part, the lower tier which mostly resembles a medieval town in structure and society, and the real differences to the higher tiers cant come to life yet as I havent rewritten the high and middle tier yet. So to you, it might seem like "a slightly less nice middle tier", while i have a different view of the whole thing due to the things i have planned. So i cant say you are wrong here, but instead ask you to be patient until you "see the full picture". I am not dumb, and I put a lot of thought into the process of developing the town, so I ask for a little faith that in the end, itll be fine - and if not, we can still go back and change it.

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What could be done is have the northern district be where most of said inns, shops and taverns are found and elaborate on how this is the part of town where you're most likely going to find adventurers and outsiders.

Uhm... I did exactly that!?

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Being the largest district, it stretches all the way from ascarlin gate in the west to mumansi gate in the east and takes up close to a third of Negavs low-tier space all by itself while barely housing a 13th of its population. It is focused on economy and military, housing both the largest amount of military barracks, as well as guilds, taverns, inns and even a tourism center.
[...]Most buildings have some sort of function revolving around travel or trade, with their owners usually living either in the floor above or in the basement underneath.
During daytime, one may experience the thriving pulse of the city, merchants selling and buying everyday items alongside adventurer gear, survival packages and even some magical artifacts here and there. Smalltalk, laughter and appraising of wares is heard throughout the city landscape, an evernoisy place especially the likes of nekos have to get used to first.
During nighttime, the outer ring lies in darkness with only the major streets being illuminated by magitech lamp posts, and light that shines through the windows of the many taverns and Inns that are still open during the late hours.

Please state where exactly that would be unclear. In fact, i nearly copied the entire northern district description just now but i believe that all those paarts do describe very well the focus on guests and trade. Soooo, yeah... ^^'

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Furthermore, the current overview makes mention that people living in the Lower Tier, i.e. the Negavians that have permanent residence there, are more friendly toward foreigners. We can take from this that they're probably also more tolerant toward other races since they're a little more common there. Again, you made no mention of that, which I think is for the worse.

Youre kinda right on this one, which is because I was going to elaborate how in the middle and higher tiers racism is actually a thing and that many species dont get to live there unless they claim a certain position within the city. Thing is, those articles arent written yet, so you couldnt know. So I kind of only can ask if I should make that more clear here, or save it up for the next article to come.
But i think we think in different directions here:
In Felarya, a hub-world thats connected to so many other worlds, diversity of species to me, is the NORM, while an absense of that (such as in middle and high tier negav) is an exception, and thus noteworthy.

Experience here on this forum has taught me that every time there is an argument, it's going to go on for a while, and the same points will be traded back and forth.

So I have a proposal instead.  Rather than point out where I agree and disagree, how about I transcribe what you already wrote, make a few changes here and there that will hopefully satisfy us both, show it to you, and you tell me what you think?  Unfortunately, it's rather late where I am at the time I'm typing this, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Incidentally, this isn't a criticism against your article or anything, but I took another look at the overhead map of Negav and I noticed there are only three barracks total in the Lower Tier: one next to Victory Gate, one next to the Great Foundry, and one next to Red-Tail Street.  Maybe it's just me, but when I read, "It thus has many buildings and constructions designed for defense," I imagine a lot more than just three.

i imagine there to be more than barracks or in general the stuff Karbo actually drew out on his map. Also, i read the different articles revolving around negav and what happened to it earlier, and thats how i caame to the conclusion that there must be more: the thick parts of the wall, I imagine to be bastions in there as well, with guaards at aarms that are aable to defend both on the outside aand inside of the wall.


Aabout the "you rewrite what I wrote": Weeeeeell, you couuuld go ahead and do that, but dont come yelling at me if I dont like your version then because apparently you aand I have different readings of my article AND as i said before, since i havent written down everything to all of negav yet, there are some things that I see with a different "background knowledge" , like the absense of a mentioning about the diversity of the species, something thats the norm to me, but noteworthy to you, yet noteworthy to me when its ABSENT like in the higher up tiers. So you could try it, but not with the expectation of your version to be taken for granted in the end.
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and also not as a competing blueprint. I try to design the FULL city, not just a tier of it. so its a little unfitting to judge it all by itself and be all like "i can do this better than you". Not saying you said that, but you get the drift. thaats what I am afraid it might come down to. I was supposed to rewrite negav, so I would like to keep it an amaroq project - at least until all tiers are presented. of course with the result being everyones consent but at least let me present the entire ideaa before starting to fix things that affect more than mere wording or the actual fixing of wrong facts. But if there aare things I know I intend to mention later on, then I would like to ask to be patient BEFORE rewriting it all again.

So it might be better to wait with that. I just came back to writing here aand literally the first thing i hear is "let me write thaat instead." in a way. <.<